Online Education 2.0: Where are we headed?

Online Education 2.0: Where are we Headed? In conversation with Craig Marsh

In an exclusive interview with Craig Marsh, Pro Vice Chancellor and Director, Lincoln International Business School

With the world gearing towards the revolution of education, technology is playing a key role in the market of education. The availability of numerous online platforms complimenting the latest forms of technology has never made learning more mobile and engaging for students. Projections show that the e-learning market worldwide is forecasted to surpass $243 billion by 2022.
(*This is an auto generated transcript)

Following are the few key highlights from the interview:

Introduction about yourself, what you’re doing at Lincoln and your past roles at Laureate.

My current role is pro vice chancellor at the University of Lincoln which involves running the college of business. The university is divided into four colleges. So it’s it’s it’s my honor to be running the College of Business and I’ve been doing that for just under three years now and that is I think about my ninth or tenth career. So in my last job I was doing and I was doing a role for Laureus online education. So I was chief academic officer for the UK which involved providing the academic delivery and supports for all of our online programs with the University of Liverpool and the University of Roehampton so think get certain that it’s at its peak in around 2011 we had just around 10000 students on online programs and I was looking after around 400 faculty who were really all over the world so and prior to that I’ve been in various roles in academia and industry.

What are some of your initiatives in degree and non-degree programs at Lincoln International Business School and the challenges of implementing them?

So initiatives and challenges. So. So I think the initiatives I mean I had I had the pleasure when I arrived. Really creating the new college from from the beginning it was a new college for the university when I took over. So. So I was able to put in place a new structure and strategy for the College of Business. And. And so that’s so. So three years has been really a construction building process transformational progress a change process. And and and also one of diversifications. So at Lincoln we have a very beautiful campus here right in the center of the city but because it’s in the centre of the city, it does put some limitations on our physical growth. So part of our initiative which is often the case has been led by the College of Business is to diversify as well as grow as any regular business we need to grow. We’ve been very successful at that the University of Lincoln is doing extremely well in the UK rankings and as a new university especially. And what we’re now doing is diversifying so we will always have as our core business the teaching of undergraduates face to face our three year undergraduate programs which we do very well and all of our rankings show that we’re very close to the top of the country seventh in the UK on student satisfaction for undergraduates. So we know that we’re good at doing that. What we’re increasingly doing though is looking at diversifying which means that we don’t have to have students physical presence here on campus to be able to teach them. So it’s not new. We have for several years run distance learning programs which I think if Divyanshu you might use the term sort of online1.0 if you like. So we’ve got a lot of experience and expertise in technology enhanced learning already.

And what we’re now doing is looking at expanding that in various ways. It’s not our only diversification clients but a significant one is to plan for and to bring in fully online programs which of course allow us to grow into scale without people having to be physically present and allow us to extend what we believe to be a fantastic educational model that we have here in Lincoln to anyone in the world. And and that’s a very big part now of what we’re what we’re up to. I think the challenge is it’s a very interesting and it’s a bit of a student of organizations myself a very interesting challenge that that brings. Like any organisation which has a core business and a core operating model that generates its revenue whether you’re building cars or whether you’re producing petrol whatever it is you’ve got an operating model that relies on consistency of delivery on maximising your the quality of what you’re doing. And a university in many respects is no difference. And that’s our core business what organisation challenges is when you bring an innovation in is how you incorporate that innovations such that it doesn’t damage or risk your main business. And that’s a very interesting challenge in Clayton Christensen was work deals with this very well. So he talks about the flying wheel of your business. So my biggest challenge has been and still is actually to work out how we’re successful at diversifying our business streams to use business language whilst making sure that the main business that we run in our undergraduates and to some extent our postgraduate teaching continues to thrive. So that’s a very interesting strategic organizational capability challenge as well.

How are you planning the transition into online courses? What are the experiences you drew from being a part of a team that launched one of the first online degrees?

So in terms of. So your first question is about how we’re going about doing that right. So what it what it does to dig into that challenge a little bit more. Yeah. So. So how are we going about doing that.

Well I think the first part of it is very much change management process so that’s making sure that for people who are well aware that this is a it’s not just a business school project it’s a university project. So we’re bringing in online programs as a strategic objective for the university fully supported by my boss the vice chancellor. So my first job really has been over the last few months a change management projects and that means a sort of hearts and minds thing. So letting people know what it’s about why we’re doing it why how it’s going to affect them and giving them an opportunity to share their concerns because particularly for people who are very busy doing our current work. Looking at a big project like this it looks like something which is new and more work for them. So part of this is to understand why we’re doing it as a university and what the importance of it is and allow people to share their concerns about that. There’s been a lot of work going on over that over that period with particular central service units in the university with my own faculty. And that’s continuing naturally. It’s a very interesting piece of work that’s really important and a big project like that to make sure that you don’t just land this on people without all of that preparation work because it simply doesn’t function in that way. The second thing then is to work on how I set up a structure that will manage this. And my intention is and has been to create what I call an innovation hub in the business school which is slightly separate from our main main job of running and teaching faculty teaching first of. Students and that will retain as a separate function at least for the time being such that they can operate outside and this is the other key challenge outside the university structures processes that run the other part of the business because those processes aren’t appropriate for this type of education. And so what I need to be able to do is is to make sure that the new new unit retains independence for the length of time that the university can call and can accommodate is in it in its regular business. Because if I don’t do that then it will be strangled by the work that the university does which is not appropriate for that part of the business. So all of our processes for managing undergraduates don’t really fit to that part of the business. It’s also a very different skill for faculty to teach online from teaching face to face. So it also allows me to bring in faculty train them and develop them in the skill of teaching online in a separate business to the to the main part of what I do. At some point in the future I may well then choose to integrate down into the main part of what we do. But for the moment I need to keep it separate. So that’s the second thing that I’m doing and then the third thing that I’m doing is that I’ve chosen to work with a partner to deliver this when this party links to Divyanshu to your second question. I’ve worked chosen to work with a partner who will bring a particular capability to Lincoln that we don’t have here or that we we have some skill in but we don’t have a strategic capability. And that is international marketing and recruitment. I guess that’s two capabilities. So the partner is going to bring that work in to me. I’m going to add that to the capability of the university and that will allow us to scale relatively quickly and to put those key tasks in the hands of somebody who I know is already good at it and can deliver it. And I think that’s coming back to your first question about my expense or your second question about my experience at Laurier because I’ve been in that position so I was if you like I was in your the other side of the equation. So on the one hand that means I know where the bodies are buried. I know how these the OPM is the online program managers function. I know how they generate success how they generate revenue. So that’s been quite a healthy discussion because they know that I have that experience and now I’m on the university side of the picture. It works that I can understand that from both sides of the of the argument. And it also means that I’m establishing for me what is a true partnership it’s not a supplier relationships a long term partnership of equals where we both get value from the partnership and most of all we work on a common vision which is providing an excellent education to a whole new generation of students using the Lincoln experience. So that experience and so my previous experience I think has been very useful to be able to try and set that up in the right sort of way such that the partnership then runs runs well from the beginning. When I was in Laureate we went through many stages of evolution of our partnerships with U.K. universities. We went we we encountered many difficulties in those relationships. So I understand what those difficulties are. And I think it allows me to try and deal with those at the outset rather than encountering them when the partnership is already running if that makes sense.

Tackling high drop-out rates from online programs

I think those are the reasons why students drop out from online programs at least the sort of online programs that I that I want to run sort of masters level working professional those sorts of on appropriate under different students have different perspectives and different reasons for dropping out but that’s that’s my target audience.

I think one of the reasons why they dropouts and why they retain are now quite well understood. A lot of experience now in how that work. So in part of the so it’s a part of the answer to your question is to come into this project with a very clear idea or a very clear task as part of the project to maximize the success of our students on the online programs because not about dropout it’s about it’s per say that’s one function of it. It’s about their success it’s about making sure that they graduate with a really good degree from this university. So it’s getting to the end of that program which is a retention question not a dropout question it’s a retention of an academic quality question if you like. So we’re starting the project with a very clear clear sort of perspective that that that’s a an essential criterion for the success of this partnership. There are then a number of steps or actions or tasks and structures that one puts in place you mentioned pedagogy that’s absolutely one of them. So a key a key criterion for me in terms of the way that you design an online experience this is a social criterion. We know that students will drop out because they feel isolated often. So we need to make sure that the pedagogy designs in a social aspect to that they’re put into an environment where they feel part of a cohort. For example a second aspect of that is individual attention so that the students feel like at any time they’re getting individual attention both from faculty and also any support services that they have available to them. A third part of it is that we know that there’s a lot of the risk of students writing or dropping out is in the first or second modules so a lot of attention to their early experiences in the online program because by the time they’ve got through to the first or second module they understand the pattern they’ve got used to the rhythm of learning. They’ve got used to the idea of learning online. They know what the time commitment is. They’ve got a more increased commitment to the program itself. We know that by and large everything else being equal they will tend to stay with you at that point. So. So it’s a lot. So a lot of effort in the design of those of those initial modules through the increased attention are paid through some really good induction into the online experience through making sure their expectations are managed carefully in the enrollment process so that they know really well and at that stage what it is that they’re letting themselves in for such that if they decide that it is not for them and provided really good information if it’s not for them because it is a massive commitment then they make the right decision and that right decision is either to join it because they feel they can do it or not to join us because they feel they can’t. So I think that’s also a big part of that of that effort to make sure that they get get to get to the end of their program. But I have to say that with our combined experience I mean Lincoln a really really good at the students experience. We know it’s a really now a very interesting task for us is to take that face to face experience and create a different but equally good an equally high quality experience in the online classroom. And you’re right in that phase right now where we’re right in the middle of designing that at the moment it’s a really interesting task for anybody who’s interested in online learning and teaching students.

Online education offering opportunities in career advancement and employability.

I suppose the first thing to say about it is that students will study these online programs for all sorts of different motivations. One of the great advantages of course of a fully online programs particularly masters level is that if you are as you say Divyanshu if your main motivation is in is isn’t in career transition it allows you to do that without having to leave your job to do it right. So you take a full two years or one year to study full time. Inevitably that forces a career transition you going to quit your job under most circumstances to be able to do that. So it allows them to to to to gain a really good degree whilst staying in employment. And it was one of the characteristics I always remember from my last job that in a global downturn it was often online.

I know there was often an upturn in online programs because people were unwilling to make to take the risk of quitting their job to go into a full time program and they saw online as a very good option for doing that. So so certainly

“Online I think is a very neat way for people to be able to achieve both which is to think about a career transition without necessarily having to take the risk of quitting a job to be able to do that.”

And and and that’s that experience and I remember this all the time from my last job one of the bits I used to love and I still do actually is go to graduation that I used to be able to speak to the online students often meet them for the first time of course and just realize how transformative their education had been for them. And know all kinds of ways and often personal you know often they go through a really deep thought process about what they want out of their careers and their lives as a result of studying online. Sometimes it is a very classic. I got a promotion as a result of getting my degree but actually that’s that’s only one of the motivations often it’s about their ability to think very differently to think more broadly to about their current role. Often it’s about taking on a slightly different role as a result of their education that they’ve done it’s often about being old and improving how they how they manage a team develop more strategic thinking. There are all sorts of skill or competence based advantages they get from studying an online program as well as of course the thing on the CV which says you have a good degree from a university which in and of itself is a massive advantage for any working professional these days.

How do universities start thinking about online programs and which ones to launch? How to differentiate their programs from the others?

I suppose the first thing is to have a strategy. I don’t think the universities are notorious of being able to do a good job at analyzing both competitive marketplace and also the demands from from from global markets and so I refer back to my previous previous comments about finding a partner who can you can do that for us no matter how universities try to do that. I don’t know of many. I think about how many universities there are in the world. I think it’s probably a very small subset of that of universities who really do get global marketing being able to analyze those marketplaces and identify products and services that meet that global market. And of course we are talking about a very first and first I kind of a very large and growing market potentially limitless actually to all intents and purposes which is the growing middle class around the world and the demand for education is enormous and that growing middle class. But it’s also that there may be a lot of providers entering that space. But my question is how many of them do it well. How many of them do the right sort of analysis of that market such that they really do target their products to it to identify that the that the people that they need on their programs. How many of them have the right quality offering to be able to deliver that. And I know just from my own networks there are lots of universities in the UK just in the UK working with or trying to work with OPMs to do this. Look at how many have actually achieved that. It’s actually a very small number who’ve actually managed it and that’s because quite frankly I think a lot of them simply don’t know how to go about doing this. So I think there is a I think there is an opportunity still to get it right. I think it’s a very big market. So there’s a slice of that market available if you do get it right. And and for a university that has a high quality offering and puts students first anyway and treats this as a long term a long term deal I think there’s there’s plenty to go around.

How will tier 1 universities change the online education landscape?

Well I suppose you could compare it with I suppose the analogy is the is the face to face based I guess. I mean if you if you if you think about the face to face face there are a range of range if you think about them as products and programs available from a massive variety of global universities from the very top to to you know less. Less well-known brands who are still still provide a good quality education all the way through to universities that perhaps aren’t of the right sort of quality. So there’s a lot of face to face offerings in the market. Those are differentiated by price. I suspect that will happen and all that is happening in exactly the same way in in the online space. So if you want an MBA from London Business School or from Harvard or from Tuck then you have to pay for it and you pay a lot for it. And what you’re paying for is the brand as well as of course I wouldn’t deny it a really good quality education. But you pay a serious amount of money for that and there’s only a small percentage of the marketplace can afford that. And I suspect the same will happen with online. So a big part of what we have to do is get our price right for the right student for the right quality and for our own particular brand positioning in the short term. And that’s a big part of our discussion as to where we set the price for it. So I would just say it will differentiate the market. Some people may be able to afford to go to those online programs at the very top brands and the very top schools. I would argue having seen those. And you know I went to Oxford myself my first degree. I would argue that you said well what exactly is it you’re paying all that that top dollar for. And it is it does is it is it really that much better than something you can get from a university which has a good brand has a growing reputation knows how to treat its students well we’ll give you a high quality education. And you can do it for a fifth or a tenth of the price. So. So I think the market itself will decide as to whether the price is right for the product to get some. That’s how markets function.

What are some of your key learnings and challenges at Laureate of how online markets evolved?

The key time So yes you’re right. I was there for gosh I think 8 years in the end. And I evolve my role well I was there. So for the last five years I was in and I was in the CEO position I was involved being V.P. of innovation for a year.
And so what were the key challenge as well that we had a very particular challenge in the U.K. because bear in mind Laureate is a very large organization educational company. A lot of what it does is as you’re aware and look for and run universities around the world and bring a rigor to to their business if you like the online space was is was actually because the contracts are now terminated in the UK quite a different sort of arrangement with the two U.K. partners. So the learning was was was back a little bit I think what I was saying about sort of stability is stability versus innovation for for Laureate the partnerships with the UK universities was very different sorts of business and I think some of my American colleagues much as I love them I think they occasionally forgot that they couldn’t just run the University of Liverpool’s online programs and the university for Roehamptons online programs that actually work in a partnership where the universities fundamentally retained the ultimate decision over how those programs were run. It was was a very long and sometimes hard learned lesson and I don’t think that ever really got to the point where people kind of understood that out with the people like myself who were actually involved in running those partnerships for Laureate. It there’s a there’s a very particular way that universities operate and that the difference in the speeds the culture the orientation from a large American for profit university and a public UK based university you can imagine a lot of friction between the two to a part of the job of running those partnerships was to kind of reduce that friction really to get under the skin of the UK university I understand how they operate what their demands were how they choose to function that there and the limitations of how they function and to build a relationship that worked with those limitations to achieve a successful result. So that was a very key learning process for me and I think my role was often the interface between between the larger American organization based in Boston and the the running of the partnership based in the UK and I found that in times really frustrating but but an incredible challenge and I came out of it with some excellent friends in both in the US and and in in Europe actually. So it was it was sometimes fraught but that’s done I think for anyone who’s you know if you’re sitting in a for example in an OPM and you’re looking at a university you will probably I suspect often have worked in a university because there’s a lot of there’s a lot of movement between OPMs and universities so I wouldn’t underestimate the value of knowing how universities function what the limitations are on how they function. All of the bureaucracy that goes with working with the university even the best ones and making sure that you think really really carefully about how you accommodate and work with those vagaries if you like of the university sector and that way you get a I think a very good understanding and a very good long term relationship. And I think perhaps the other thing about it is as you as you’re looking at those partnerships and thinking about how you set up a genuine shared risk and shared return which drives that partnership. So your incentives are fully aligned. Now that’s just about good long term partnerships actually but so important in this space to make sure that you both fully understand what it is that you’re doing as a result of this partnership that you’ve you’ve both fully appreciate your the objectives of each other because the objectives are never completely the same but you do get what the OPM is doing as a university and vice versa and make sure that you build it into the foundation of the partnership and that’s the work that I’ve been doing over the last 12 months or so ready to set up our our own online stuff. So I’m hoping it’s gonna be a success there will be many many bumps along the road. There’s no doubt about it there always is. But but but having those that kind of understanding of those differences and similarities between the two I think is a hugely important piece of the success of these things.

What are the challenges you faced when launching online postgraduate programs?

So in terms of setting them up. The key challenge and this kind of a little bit of what I was talking about as a university is that I in the university and I haven’t even even here now. You know you have faculty become very engaged in their subjects and I think that they want to they want to launch a program master’s program in their area of expertise and they consider it a success if they get 10 students on it. And it’s it’s it’s getting the balance right between bringing your faculty with you you’ve got the energy and passion for their subject and bringing in that capability of being able to assess a global market understand what the actual demand is for a program and putting those two things together because they don’t always sit together so it and that is a that’s a very interesting process just to have to go through and it’s a group which requires continual work. So when I was at Laureate we saw it all the time. So you know Laureate would not look at a program that wasn’t generating I don’t know 250 300 students after a couple of years from launch more. That’s an absolute minimum for many many members of the faculty at the university that they they would look at that and say How on earth can I manage a program can we run a program with that many students on it. So there’s often this you start from this very large disparity between what Success looks like for an online program. And what a member of faculty thinks that success looks like for that in their particular area and kind of bringing those two together and having them understand each other and get to a common solution is a is a is a is a process that we’re actually embarked on as only as I speak. And actually again just coming back to this sort of how do you make sure that all of the incentives line up between the university often represented by program leader and the OPM such that you all looking at the same the same common objectives for delivering and that’s that’s a really interesting challenge

Should the elements of a PG program in a face to face environment be replicated in an online environment?

To some some extent Divyanshu I don’t think you can see the programs in management. Yeah I mean one of the things we do at Lincoln is it’s a it’s an applied approach anyway so you know the particularly in the business school I think this is true to a group of business schools is that you you can’t just teach programs in a theoretical way anymore. And that depends on your faculty ability depends on your concerns depends on giving exposure to practitioners etc those things are the same online as they are face to face. However it does come back a little bit I think to your question about you know the career transition because when people study online for slightly different reasons it’s a huge simplification but to kind of generalize for second study online probably for slightly different reasons they might do a face to face program because because precisely they’re doing face to face masters it might be a transition to a first career even or potentially a transition to to another career. Whereas online you are already potentially usually already working so the need to be exposed to to business to business practice is slightly less because you’re kind of exposed to it every day. Whereas if your study in face to face to face perhaps. On a full time Program. You might not necessarily have either have had that exposure. If you’re coming straight from an undergraduate program or you might not have it available to you because you’re you’re in a classroom. So. So I think that the need is a slightly different one on the online programs that it’s all it’s not at all to say that we wouldn’t bring in cases that we wouldn’t bring in practitioners but probably in terms of your program design you may put slightly less emphasis on the requirement to do that as you would do in the face to face program if that makes sense

How can an online program account for geographical changes while being fully online and standardized?

Indeed indeed Divyanshu.

It’s an essential design criteria and in fact for your online program
excuse me. And so I think if you think the only time that becomes a problem. Is if. Your assumption is that the pedagogy is you go in and you learn stuff from the consent and then you reproduce that consent for your assessment and it was that’s that’s the limits of your learning. And I again I’ve oversimplified just to make the point if your design is such that whatever the content says that you design and the concept will be ready goes is really just a start point from the learning process and that

“You allow the students to go on a voyage of discovery in a way which is sort of based around critical action learning methodology then the student him or herself is is creating their own learning experience”

and that’s very easy and easy. It’s it’s a very effective way I should say of of of designing in. The challenge to meet the challenge that you’ve just you’ve just presented. So to take an example studying HR which is my subject if you’re in a if you’re in a if you’re in a business in India or a business in China or a business in Africa you can still get an extremely good learning process which is facilitated by the tutor which has a start point of some content which which develop some sort of some base theoretical ideas on the subjects. But the end point is unique to you and to your particular circumstances in whichever area of the world you happen to be in in whichever business you happen to be in a given example at the moment I’m running a blended. And the I’ve just taught the first module on it which is I’m leading in developing people and now all of the it’s a regional program programs so all of the participants are UK based. However one of one very big part of that conversation is is between those who are based in a public sector organisation and those were based in private sector organisations. So even in the UK even in this region there are coming at it the subject matter with very very different perspectives. And that’s created a very healthy and a very interesting discussion in the classroom because we’re using a critical action learning process so they they get an enormous amount out and a lot of the learning of course particularly at Masters level and particularly with working professionals is done through the discussion and through the interaction between other people who are on a similar learning journey and that’s an extremely effective way of learning. So it’s a very good question Divyanshu but I think we’ve developed over experience of being able to create an environment that anyone wherever you are in the world can benefit from in a unique way. Yes it’ll be. I mean

How can fully online and completely synchronized programs enhance peer to peer interaction?

I have my favorites based on experience but actually we’re in the design process right now. What I think we will end up with is certainly to start with it will be a discussion based pedagogy. The key criterion is to make sure that that discussion is done in a way which is flexible to accommodate time zones all around the world which means that that students have to have enough chronological time to to run an effective discussion over a set number of days given the given the module or the particular question that they may be discussing given time. And also in terms of the particular events in that discussion have to be done. So in the right sort of way. So if it’s an asynchronous discussion relatively easy to do because
you can run that discussion over a period of time it’s not time based and one of the great advantages of the asynchronous discussion thread is precisely that that you can contribute to it whenever you wish. It breaks down often breaks down cultural norms because from certain cultures where contributing to a discussion in the classroom may not be a cultural norm for you they find it easier to do it overcomes language barriers potentially because you have time to reflect on your contribution. So the asynchronous thread is for me a very powerful means of engaging students in that learning process. However there’s also a role I think for synchronous discussions on technology now is much better than it used to be even five or ten years ago. For running that’s more reliable people have much more bandwidth now than they used to have you used to be point on this shows my longevity in online programs there was a time when we had to allow for the fact that people didn’t simply didn’t have in their part of the world the right bandwidth to be able to run something like a synchronous conversation where that’s when the asynchronous discussion was essential really. That’s much less of a limitation now so so synchronous conversations. However there are often but they do need to be done in a way that allows full time zone. So generally if you have one synchronous session and you’re running a global program it needs to be run two or maybe three times over a given time zone such that they can have the opportunity to dial in directly to it. What you also need to do which is essential is of course to record those discussions put them in the classroom so if whatever reason you’ve missed it and you get the chance to catch up afterwards. So. So those are probably some of the considerations. They’re not the only ones but those are some of the core considerations in design for an online experience.


Trends and technology that excite you in online education

There are a couple that I think could really really out there actually to be untrue. And by the way that it’s interesting. One of my favorite expressions is that there’s no new ideas under the sun that just an evenly distributed and so. So I’ve got an idea and I’m at the sort of the wrong end of the age spectrum really to be a since I’m not a technologist.

However when we look at when we look at the gaming world there where you have this incredibly immersive experience in game experience incredibly interactive I think there’s there’s there are now many opportunities for us to learn in the education space and they are being learned actually in the gaming world to create virtual environments where you can really be there and particularly in for example which I say let’s say you’re teaching online students or the learning objective is to learn laboratory procedures. You know it’s very easy now to create a simulated laboratory environment where they can learn all of the safety method mechanisms for working in a laboratory without ever having to to risk being in a real laboratory. I’ve seen good online environments for teaching firefighters where they never have to risk risk injury because it’s all done online. The military are using an awful lot now but I’ve been for decades actually using online simulations of course for military training something that happens just down the road here. So there’s a massive opportunity now for us in the educational sphere to learn from and adapt and incorporates that kind of excuse me that virtual environments there’s a business school in France. There have been talking to recently who are using augmented reality with their students. So it’s a face to face class but they give them a headset which fits onto their iphone so they use an app and it allows them on the logistics class to walk around a clean factory which they would never be able to do in practice will be really difficult. Large numbers of students and almost have a virtual case where they’re studying how that factory operates and they can interview people in the factory they can engage with them they can engage with each other and then bring that learning back into the classroom and say and talk about what it is that they’ve discovered. Those are just fantastic opportunities now to bring technology into into our educational experience and I think we’ll just see an explosion of those sorts of things as technology gets cheaper as it becomes more available as it becomes people become more accessed to that technology. That’s just such a really exciting area over the next five to 10
years I would say

How do you envision online education in 2030?

Probably more mainstream. I would I would like to think I mean you know you and I have been talking for a while Divyanshu about about online developing markets in India for online. I think there’s still some cultural norms in certain parts of the world that say that the only good education is a face to face education I think we’ll see in the next 10 years. That really. Getting less. I think it’ll still be there and certain parts of the world. But I think the perception that still is out there occasionally of online education being somehow inferior to face to face education. You mentioned some of the top schools now getting into online space. So that’s clearly going to drive quality and standards in online education. And I think people will just see online as in the same way as face to face with a broad range of offers a broad range of selections with some really good quality some less good quality there won’t just be this generic perception anymore that by definition if you’re studying online it’s going to be an inferior experience to face to face. I think in certain cases online will provide a much better experience. There will still be by the way a room for both. And I think one of the things we’re starting to see is you know particularly some of these virtual experience we’re talking about. It’s almost like the two started to emerge in some ways. And the you know the face to face experience becomes an online experience through through the use of technology. So that will help to break down some of these misperceptions about about quality. So I think that’s probably a a shift that will and that we’ll start to see happening over the next 10 years. It’s happening already but I think we’ll see more of that in the next 10.

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